- How is fear used in the novel?
- Why did Golding write the book with the main characters as children?
- Are people innately savage, civil, both, or neither?
Monday, February 23, 2015
Lord of the Flies Discussion Chapters 5-6
Answer the following in two well developed paragraphs then respond to at least 2 of your classmates in a well developed paragraph:
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I like this book for a few reasons. The most important one is how it portrays humans. Golding wrote the book using children because children are supposed to be the angels of society. Children are pure. Children have done nothing wrong—yet. However, in this book, these children simply show that humanity is innately savage. How contradictory is that? Am I right? Ralph and Piggy may be the only two civil children on the island. Everyone else are uncivilized savages who simply want to play and kill pigs. Both of which satisfy individual urges at others expense; ergo, they are pretty much savage. The children are violent and uncontrollable.
ReplyDeleteNow, fear in this novel is used as a tool. There are at least two fears: Ralph’s fear of staying in that island for the rest of his miserable life and the children’s fear of the “beastie.” This brings desperation and more fear. The beauty of this is that it brings out the look of savage in their eyes. In desperation and in fear, people will do irrational things—which is awesome.
I would agree with you on your above statements. The children do portray humanity as naturally savage, with their psychotic behavior whilst on the island. Like you said, everyone wants to kill pigs and play around all day. And fear is definitely used in the way that you said, in all reality, fear is what creates the savagery inside of all the young boys.
DeleteI also like this book, well I'm starting to. At first I thought it would be some weird kid actually trying to rule flies, because he had a pet fly that followed him around or something, but this book has proven me wrong. It is quite interesting and I honestly don't want it to end. The suspense allows me to keep reading and not want to finish reading. I also agree the fear is also used as a key tool in this book.
DeleteGolding use of children and their innocence transition into the ultimate savage nature of humans, but these children become stranded without any guidance which I feel leads them to do anything terrible because they do not have anyone to tell them otherwise.
DeleteI agree with you that fear leads people to do irrational things. However, I think everyone plays an active roll in whether or not they're civil or savage. We have both in us, it just depends on what part of that we choose to act upon that defines us, regardless of how much easier it would be to act as a savage than a civil member of society.
Deletebruh thats deep
Deletein The Lord of the Flies, fear is used as a motivator above all else. Ralph draws his ability to lead and his strength to carry on in the worst situations from his fear of staying on the island until the day that he dies. Meanwhile, the rest of the boys use fear as a way to hold on to the last remnants of acceptable societal behavior, by fearing the "Beastie." without this fear that the boys carry throughout the novel, they would more than likely all run into the forest in a ridiculous fashion, never to be seen again.
ReplyDeleteGolding may have accidentally created the ultimate social experiment in his famous novel. Basically, children are the best variable in an experiment about what happens when humans are put in a hostile environment. This is because children do not carry the level-headedness of an adult, nor do they have the same view on the world as adults, due to the fact that they have not had "grown-up problems," yet, such as bills, work, etc. Therefore, children would react in the most natural and unaltered way to this situation in real life. And, according to Golding, they turn into savages naturally, and I honestly cannot help agreeing with him.
I agree with every single statement stated here. Ralph is a key person who carries on in the worst situations from his fear. Without fear the boys wouldn't be as cautious as they are throughout the story. Children also do not carry the same level of smartness as an adult, so they are perfect examples of being tested as adults really. It's rare that a child has to deal with "grown-up problems"
DeleteI agree with everything except the part about the children. I don't think it's because the children have not had "grown-up problems" that they react as they do. I think it's because they have experienced very little of society. Forget about the level-headedness of adults. Society gives people morals. Society creates what is right and what is wrong early on. I remember being beaten silly with the chancla when I misbehaved when I was young. Society gives morals. Society now considers war and killing bad when before it was the idea of dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. Now, these children are clean of most of these morals that society gives and are able to do whatever their little savage heart pleases.
DeleteUpon reading Lord of the Flies, I've found that this book is quite interesting. At first I thought that it would be a "lame" book due to the cover being so odd. Throughout the story Golding uses, fear and the use of children in his story.Golding uses children to make a point about human nature. The reason why Golding uses children is because many of the children were just grasping the meaning of moral values. The difference between right and wrong were largely administered by adult figureheads Golding wanted to see what would happen if children were left to develop without being taught how to act. he innocence of children is the perfect format to prove his point. British military school kids in particular, turning to savagery brings home Golding's point of the inherent darkness of man's heart.
ReplyDeleteThe reason that fear is used in this story is to show fear itself is worst than your deepest fear really.The most dangerous thing on the planet is fear, especially fear of the unknown. The boys in Lord of the flies obviously are scared of the beast, but who knows fear might be more dangerous than the beast. Fear is also a necessity in the story. What's a story with children and a beast without fear itself.
I agree with you all the way on this one cuh. You speaketh the truth. i also thought that it was going to be lame, because you know Lear be picking them books that make you wanna snort a pound of yogurt into nostrils and come out your ear. But the scary part is that they don't know what that beast is capable of and they're going to have to act savaged to probably kill it.
DeleteYour comment "Fear might be more dangerous than the beast itself" is ultimately clever. But I feel that there is no physical beast. I feel that the beast is just a pigment of the children's idea of fear. They simply put a face on their fear and named it "beastie."
DeleteI TAUGHT THY WOMAN HOW TO SHINE THY SWORD! Now that you know who it is. From the beginning of the novel, the squad of little boys struggle with fear of the unknown. These boys are very young, they've had to do a lot of "growing up" when they became stranded and this loss of innocence plays a big factor in their fear. Everybody fears growing up (Peter Pan and Neverland, etc) and this, along with the lack of control, is the major thing that the boys fear.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, I believe that William Golding wrote the novel "Lord Of The Flies" to show that children couldn't build their own civilization. That everything would lead to straight to violence and chaos if children were to be put in charge.
As each life form on earth progresses, you go thru each stage. But you live civilized until you have to go savage. Innately people are raised civilized in America. If you go to Africa everything will seem savage to you. For instance, everybody in Clewiston High are civilized people in your face. But what about out of school? They could be crazy white people and Mexicans running wild, looking for prey to feed their children in the late nights. Unlike them, I drink from the great glaciers of Chimborazo. Overall, it depends on where you are and how you are raised.
I agree with you that the kids' loss of innocence plays a big factor in their fear. All their lives they have had adults telling them what to do and protecting them, but now that they are put in charge of their own lives, they live with the fear of being stuck forever. They seek leadership from Ralph or Jack, because to them they are the adults on the island.
DeleteFear is used in the novel when the children get trapped on an island having to fend for themselves with no adults present and fear is also used by the “beastie” that suppose lies in the forest that the children are so much afraid of. Golding wrote the book with the main characters being children because children are still pure and in their innocence.
ReplyDeletePeople are innately savage, humans ultimately are savage and we try to act civil to hide it. In The Lord of the Flies, the children’s fear is what boosted them to show how savage humans in reality are, the only civil ones on the island are Ralph and Piggy while the others are being savage, wanting to kill pigs and playing around.
I agree with you that children are considered pure and innocent, and by showing children put in a situation in where they must fend for themselves, fear will arise and be a huge factor in dictating the life of the boys. Also people are natural savages and by writing this book using children. We see that point proven that humans are naturally savage
DeleteThat's exactly right. Fear is used in the novel when they have to fend for themselves, much like what happens in our every day lives. BUT, I don't think it's "savage" to kill pigs for food. It's only wrong if you kill it and leave it there.
DeleteThe feeling of fear is used in the novel starting with the beginning and is continued so far, throughout the novel. It is the main thing that takes the rationality from the boys' thinking. The boys have a fear of being alone, which is ironic because they are alone on the island. The boy's fear of being leads to the idea of the "beast" or what is known in the novel as "beastie."
ReplyDeleteGolding wrote the book with the characters being children because that is what increases the fear factor. If the main characters were adults they would better be able to handle their stranded situation. Humans are ultimately savage, because even when we know what is right and good we still choose to do the opposite of that.
I agree with you, Megan. You're right-the boys need to be fearful, it keeps them rational. My answer for the second part was different but your answer does make sense. The fact that they are children does deepen the story in the manner. I concur, people are savages.
Delete"Humans are ultimately savage, because even when we know what is right and good we still choose to do the opposite of that."
DeleteWho has fun doing what is right and good? So, the opposite is obviously the best option. I would do thousands of bad things if I knew I wouldn't be punished afterwards.
I completely agree with you. Fear is what takes all rationality away from the children. The fear that they have causes them to make decisions that even, they themselves, are not sure of what they are doing, but they feel that it is the right thing to do due to the circumstances that they are in.
DeleteFear is used in the novel as a motivator for the young boys. Without them fearing the “beastie” or never being picked up, I do not think anything would get done. If the boys did not fear not being picked up, they wouldn’t have as much of a drive to build the huts or hunt for food. If they had no fear and were sure they’d be picked up the next day or next two days or whatever, huts and hunting wouldn’t be as much of a priority. The fear the boys have for the beast keeps them together, which is safer.
ReplyDeleteGolding wrote the book with the main characters as children because children are innocent. The theme of the story could only be played off if the characters weren’t already tainted by life. It had to be children. This was to show how they lost their innocence away from humanity. These innocent boys are in the wild and it turns them savage. By this, Golding was saying that people are innately savage.
I agree with you on your point that fear is a motivator for the children. That fear is what pushes them to survive and make the resources that they have work for them. They were well aware that mommy and daddy were not going to pick them up in an hour and they also knew that the island was not just some playground. The kids were aware that they had to survive one way or another.
DeleteI understand your point, but I don't see it as a motivator. In my life, I don't get motivated by fear. In baseball, you won't get anything done if you fear making an error, or striking out. But, having said that, I feel that the fear of the little ones drove Ralph and Jack to get things done so they would keep everyone calm
DeleteIn The Lord of the Flies, fear tends to take a huge role throughout the novel. It is used to create suspense because the kids realize that they are alone on the island with no adults, the people who they depend on. However, this fear that the children have is what pushes them to want to survive and make things work. Due to the persistence of wanting to live, their fear drives them to hunt and make shelter which is what creates such a good background to the story and helps the reader understand how their fear makes the children want to go through the struggle of surviving in the conditions of an island.
ReplyDeleteGolding wrote the book with the main characters as children to show that even the most innocent minds and beings can be driven to making drastic decisions in the means of survival. He wanted to portray throughout the novel that any human, no matter what age, is a savage when driven to be one. People are innately savage when in comes to situations as one like being stuck on an island with no source of food or water or of anyway of getting off of it. Golding, through his novel, wanted to show the reader that it is a natural instinct for a human to act savagely in a crisis at no matter what costs.
I agree with you that the fear in the story adds suspense to the novel overall. The fear of death is what motivates the children to do better for themselves and push them to the extremes for small children like hunting down and killing a pig. Their innocence fades away the more time they remain on the island. Especially Jack who has become obsessed with killing pigs and hunting in general. He has become more of a savage than most of the other children on the island.
DeleteYou added things that I missed. I agree with you, Abby. The fear the children feel does add to the suspense of the story because the kids realize that they must depend upon themselves. I think Golding did write the main characters as children because they are innocent and would be good examples for how humans are innately savage.
DeleteI agree with you that fear can be used as a motivator for the children to continue to survive and plays a key role for them. I also agree that by using children he can portray that any human being is capable of letting their savagery take over in times of crisis and that it is natural for it to occur when all hope is lost and survival Is priority
DeleteI agree with you that fear is being used to create suspense in the story. Since the children are alone then they have to learn how to survive without adults. Fear pushed them into letting their savagery come out.
DeleteFear in this novel comes from a variety of sources. The main being that the boys will remain stranded on this island for eternity or until they all die, whichever comes first. Another source of fear is the dreaded Beast, which is nightmare fuel for everyone specifically the littluns. They remain restless through the nights thinking that once they slumber, the Beast will appear and tear their entrails out and use it as floss. Finally another source of fear are the boys themselves. In the beginning, they were all nice and friendly but as time passed they have become more hostile to one another. Golding used children as main characters to portray that even though children have a tendency to be surrounded by adults who informs them on what to do and how to behave. But once adults are taken away from the picture, what happens? Exactly as this novel shows, because their minds are still growing and because they have been thrown out in the world on their own, they start behaving in an illogical manner.
ReplyDeletePeople are innately savage, but because we are trained from a young age to behave in a specific manner, which is being civil we are able to hide that natural savagery. Though it's hidden it never disappears in fact it can reveal itself if one is put in a situation similar to this novel in which survival I'd key and if something or someone is in your way, they must be eradicated because they are an obstacle to your survival.
The boys have nightmares about this beastie. I agree with you that the children are driven to drastic measures because they have no sense of control or right or wrong because they are so young. Without someone to control them like adults they are relying on instincts to survive and, as you said, they behave illogically. People are trained throughout life to control their emotions and actions and suppress their bad behavior. With no one to teach the children, they will be lost and cause even more damage to each other.
DeleteFear is a major theme throughout the Lord of the Flies so far. Fear plays a large role in the novel and is what motivates the stranded children to work and defend themselves from the elements and "dangers" of the island. One of the main fears of the children, especially the younger ones, is the fear of the creature that lives on the island that they call "beastie." Even if the creature is real or not, their fear is very real. The children are afraid of being alone because they have most likely never been away from their parents as long as they have. All of the children are afraid that they wont get rescued.
ReplyDeleteGolding wrote this novel with children as the main characters because it shows how desperate measures change people. With children, one would expect purity, but as the novel progresses we see that the situation they are in have started to ruin their innocence. Some children stay rational like Piggy and Ralph, while others have strayed away from the group and have become obsessed with killing. I believe people have it in them to be both savage and civil. When pushed too far people do irrational things and they also have dark thoughts.People have the capability to do both but when outside influences become too much to handle, their instincts turn innately savage.
Gloria, I agree with you that fear is one of the main themes in the book. Stranded on an island, they were hopeless. Motivated by fear, they elected Ralph as the leader and united together. It shows that they were afraid of their new surroundings. As the story progresses, one can see how the personalities of the boys change. Due to the circumstances, their become increasingly aggressive and fight among each other often. The desperation of the situation contributes greatly to this change.
DeleteA great point that when people are pushed too far our instincts shift to savagery. One could argue that the separation from civil to savage on the island may be represented by Ralph and Piggy and the hunters. The hunters being the ones who could not bare with the fear and stress of living on the island by themselves.
DeleteFear in this novel is what drives the kids to turn against each other. Fear is what caused Jack and Ralph to become leaders. Their fear is also what leads to the "beast". I think that there is no beast, but instead it is just a part of their imagination. Golding made the main characters as children, to show that society is what shapes people into the adults that they are. For example, these kids all got to the island as innocent kids, but now that there are no adults, they have to take charge and be responsible for themselves.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I've been a savage since day one. Second of all, humans have been raised to act in a civil manner. Society is what tells us what that "civil" manner is. No matter how civil one acts, humans will always have that little bit of savage instinct inside of ourselves.
This response was savage. But you make a really good point in saying that society defines civility. That's very true.
DeleteI literally just laughed out loud. You do make a good point in saying that society is the one who defines what civility is, I never thought about it that way.
DeleteI agree, society is what shapes us into believing what they want us to believe. Society shapes our beliefs and helps create our standing point on certain ideas. The children being on the island allowed them to think freely but also caused the boys to turn to fear as their guide.
DeleteFear is a huge factor in everything going on in this novel. Golding uses fear to show that these boys have no idea what to do or how to fend for themselves after being thrust into this situation. Their journey throughout this novel is a learn-as-you-go experience and any small mistake could lead to fatalities. The frequency at which fear is seen in this novel serves as insight to the reader as to how many variables there are. All of those variables lead to the fear of injury, fear of death, and fear of the unknown.
ReplyDeleteGolding writes the characters in this book as children in order to show the change in human nature under different circumstances. For instance, at the beginning of the novel, these boys are obviously very well-behaved and civil English schoolboys. As the boys become more stressed due to the increasingly life-threatening situations they are in, they more savage they become. When people think of young children, they think of innocence and purity. However, once that has been tainted, there is no going back. It is much the same with the question as to whether humans are innately savage, civil, both, or neither. We all have the ability to be either, it is what we choose to act upon that ultimately determines our nature. Those with little self control who allow themselves to fall prey to the savagery become stuck in that savage state, while those with more self control who do not fall into this trap will continue to be their normal civil selves.
I agree with you that Golding wrote the book with the characters as children to show the change of human nature under different circumstances. If the kids were to be put in a similar situation, but in the city, they would have no worries as they are used to the city life. The fact that they are stuck on the island makes them worried and they feel out of place. Now that they are in a place that they are not used to, they have to adapt to the obstacles that are put ahead of them.
DeleteAnessa, I agree with what you said. Fear is one of the main themes of the book. It is the driving force behind the boys getting together in hope of survival. Also, Golding uses children as the main characters due to children are generally perceived as innocence. However, as the story develops, we can see the changes in the boys' personalities. The changes weren't because of their nature, but because of the circumstances.
DeleteIn this book, fear is being used as a motivator for collaboration.Stranded on an island, the boys are afraid. It is the driving force behind the boys uniting together in hope of survival. On page 35, the boy talked about a "snake-thing. Ever so big (pg 35). It shows that the boys are afraid of the unknown on the island, so they get together for security. Fear is also one of the main themes of the book.
ReplyDeleteThe reason that Golding used children as main characters of the book is because children are generally perceived as innocent. They are viewed as innocence, yet throughout the story, they will change as situation changes and conflicts happen. In my view, people are neither savage or civil. People are born neutral, and they are influenced by their environment. In the story, due to their struggle on the island, they fight and get in conflicts with each other. On page 68, when the hunters let the fire went up, Ralph said "they let the bloody fire go out (pg 68)" and was mad. It shows that it wasn't the children who turned themselves into savages, but only because the circumstances forced them to.
I agree with you. The reason the boys do anything is because of the fear that they are feeling. This is also a reoccurring theme throughout the novel. That's a good reason to why he uses children. Children are generally seen as innocent.
DeleteI agree with you on fear being a major theme so far in the novel. They used fear to gain confidence in surviving but at the same time some of the children are lacking at the duties (they need to get it together if they want to be rescued) I also agree with children representing innocence
DeleteI read this book once before in 8th grade and i really never liked it; but now that I am older I actually do enjoy it. I feel that Golding intention for using children as the main characters was to illustrate how human beings are wired for conflict and corruption. The two tribes are constantly arguing and how neither one do their part, much like how Democrats and Republicans bicker in today's society. I feel like the people are both savage and civil. They start out civil and adjust to being on their own. Then, stress and fear took over them and they became savages and started fighting all the time. Fear is a natural feeling human beings have, especially young children. They were all alone with no adults, so it was natural for fear to take over. The "beast" became the only thing the children could think about. I think Golding used fear as a symbol throughout the novel as well. With Ralph and Jack's stress of taking care of the children, to the children's fear of the "beastie," it symbolizes how all humans tend to react in these circumstances.
ReplyDeleteFear is used in this novel to motivate. This is also the reason behind children being used in this story: they are more willing to admit to be motivated by fear than adults would. Without fear, they wouldn't survive. The fear that the children are feeling there wouldn't be a reason behind them doing anything. Not only is it fear of the 'beast' but also the fear of being alone and never being rescued. That is their sole reason for surviving, not knowing if anyone is going to save them.
ReplyDeleteHumans are naturally both. Everyone has good and evil inside of them; savage and civil. It is up to each individual person to decide which to act upon. There are tendencies that can lead us to either side, but we choose which side to follow. As Sirius Black said, "We've all got both light and dark inside of us. What matters is the part we choose to act on. That's who we truly are."
Golding uses children as the main characters for the novel as to prove a point that not even society's "angels" are able to refrain from savagery. Fear is used in the novel as a catalyst to bring about savagery. The children fear the beastie, although there is no solid proof it exists, however, the beastie is what motivates the boys to act as they do. By fearing that they might also be stuck on the island forever, the boys start to adjust to their environment.
ReplyDeleteRalph and Piggy are probably the only rational people on the island and symbolize the nagging voice that differentiates right from wrong. The two boys acknowledge the fact that the others are acting out of proportion and the idea of hunting pigs does not help to get off the island.
I agree with your first point. It emphasizes that everyone has some sort of savagery inside of them. I agree that fear is a pivotal part in the novel, as fear is the driving force that all the children use, whether it is to hunt more, or even to reason more.
DeleteFear is used as a tool in this novel. It is fear that intimidates the boys to look for a chief which ultimately is Ralph. They fear the beast so much that they seek a form of leadership to soothe them, whether it is by force or not. I believe Golding makes the characters children to show that even the most innocent, can still possibly be heartless killers. If children became such savages, it is even easier to see that adults could do the same.
ReplyDeleteHumans are both savages, and civil. There are not many people that are pure evil, but no one on this world is perfect either. I also believe that one can choose to express one side more than another. Possibly, every person uses one more than another at a different measure.
In The Lord of the Flies, fear in seen continuously throughout the novel. This continuous fear is used to create suspense because the boys realize that they are alone with no adults, & now have to rely on one another. Although this fear is at first a weakness, the boys begin to learn how to use this mutual fear to begin to work together & learn how to survive on the island. With the desire to live, they start to hunt & build shelter. This helps the reader see how the boys’ fear has them begin to adapt to the conditions of the island.
ReplyDeleteWhen writing this book, Golding made the main characters to be children to show that age & knowledge does not matter when needing to survive during such a crisis as being stranded on an island. In other words, any being, no matter the characteristics, can be a savage when led to it. People are innately savage in situations like being stranded on an island with few resources of & not having a way to get off of it. Through the novel, Golding wanted to show the readers that it is a natural instinct for someone to act savagely in a crisis such as what the boys go through.
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