- Answer in a thoughtful response
- Cite evidence from the text
- Your response should be two well developed paragraphs
- Respond to 2 of your classmates in a at least 5 sentences
- Due Monday at midnight
Thursday, October 9, 2014
1984 Discussion Post 1
Think about Newspeak. Does language shape thought? Action? Is language
necessary for either thought or action? Without language, does reality
exist? Does perception?
Here is a video to help (because I know you guys loved her so much)
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Language, in my opinion, is not necessary for and does not shape thought or action. When you think about it, animals are capable of thought and action, and they do not have a language. Their thoughts may be based on the natural instinct to take action to survive, but it is still there.
ReplyDeleteReality does exist without language, as does perception. (I don't know why, but these questions are making me question my entire existence and it makes me feel uncomfortable.)
Good, I think that may have been the point of the questions and of Orwell as well. Anessa, be sure to further your thoughts though to receive full credit for your post. You are on the right track and thought process.
DeleteAnessa, I do agree with you in a way such as animals don't have language. But they do still communicate in different ways. I don't really know what else to elaborate on 1Lear
DeleteI do think that reality and perception would still exist if there were no forms of communication. Although we wouldn't have words to describe our experiences, that doesn't take away from the fact that they still happened.
DeleteI agree with you that language is not necessary to shape thought and action. Humans are driven by instinct on a day to day basis even if we are not aware of it as much as we should be. Animals do lack a certain language but the instinct remains, so there is some type of thought process. I agree with you again that reality as well as perception can exist with the absence of a language. There is a big difference between what you say and what you actually see and feel. These questions do make you question your existence because they challenge your thoughts and certain beliefs you have.
DeleteI agree language is not necessary to shape thought. Animals are capable of action and thought even though they do not have a language.Then again if we think about it possibly animals do have a language of communication the only problem with us is that we can't understand it just like they can't understand ours. We have to train a dog to sit, but we don't really know if they understand us it could be an action that we do when we tell them to sit that is the signal from us to them to do as they are told. I really don't know if someone understands what it is I'm trying to say, but like Anessa said "These questions are making me question my existence". It is complicated to think that what we already know could be a lie, inventions of other people and the evolution of language.
Delete- I confused myself with what I'm trying to say here..
I believe language does shape thought and action. Language, or communication is essential to get things done. The way we speak can roll over into our actions. If we constantly speak negative, we will get negative results. In 1984, Winston learned about the words that would be taken out of the dictionary. Those select words could be words needed to express thought or action. Without language, reality would still exist although I'm not really sure if we would have a clue what is going on.
ReplyDeleteGood response. Without language, there would be no purpose for thoughts because there would not be any meaning behind them. Like you said, if you speak negatively one would get negative results, so if we do not speak at all, we can have no result whatsoever. Without language and a clueless reality, what would really be the point of it?
DeleteI agree, I also believe that if we did not have language, reality would exist, but we might have also discovered a different type of communication.
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ReplyDeleteNewspeak was created by the Party to control the thoughts of the people. If the party could limit the words people knew and could use, sooner or later they would come to think and act like the party would want them to. That was the ultimate goal of the party. On page 52 in the novel Syme says, "Don't you see the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thought-crime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it." Language does not shape thought and actions completely. It is what you think that determines your actions and what you say. Like Anessa mentioned, animals are capable of thought and action without a language. Even though there is still a slight form of communication between one animal and another, they are mostly driven by instincts. Humans are also driven by instinct and before language there was thought and action. As humans evolve so does language.
ReplyDeleteReality can exist without language. Reality is what you see and what is around you, something concrete and something that is a fact. Whereas perception is what you feel or think about that reality. Everyone perceives reality differently than everyone else because every thought process is different. Language has little effect on how you see something. The party's goal to control the thoughts of people seem far fetched because even if they limited the language the people could use, they cannot control their feelings. Even if the party wanted to control love for example, the outer party members would have no name to place on the feeling, but it would still exist.
I agree with you on both of your points. The evolution of humans has led to the changing of our languages. Think about the new words that have been created (like "google"), and words that have been almost forgotten (like "prithee") due to humans evolving. Also, I really like your example of love being uncontrollable. Just because there isn't a word for something, does not mean it isn't there.
DeleteIf the Party truly wanted to control Love, as you said in your example, they wouldn’t remove it from the vocabulary. It wouldn’t work. Because love is a thing that won’t be easily removed from humanity. Instead, the better idea, is to give “love” a bad connotation. The only reason you know that feeling of hormones and what not is “love” is because it is labeled as “love.” This is why removing the word wouldn’t work. Eventually, people would have a feeling that they don’t know what it is. They won’t know that it’s “love.” They don’t know what “love” is. If the Party truly wanted to remove “love,” the Party must name this feeling you call “love” something horrible. Call this feeling “hate.” Whenever someone feels “love” they feel “hate.” The emotion will be “hate” to them. The emotion will be labeled as “hate.” The emotion will be defined as is. There will be two triggers then for the word “hate.” One will be actual hatred; the other will not. It doesn’t even have to be the word “hate” to replace the word “love.” It could be the word “hungry.”
DeleteThe point is that things are labeled within our minds. Schemas, they are called. A schema is how we organize something based of information and connections we have with the new thing. If the Party controls these schemas, then the Party controls the person. This is what they did to Winston. His organization was not the one the Party needed. So, they did rewiring.
Although you can make the argument that animals don't use language, it definitely develops thought. For instance, people often describe a sunset as beautiful. Does an animal ever take the time to watch the sun descend from view? No. However, we as humans may take the time to watch and describe the beauty and majesty of the blah blah blah. This is the point of newspeak. The language Eliminates the use of Adjectives, as to prevent members of the party from describing events and observations that would allow them to develop personality. For instance, when Syme talks about his development of the language, he tells Winston about how he is getting rid of words like "wonderful" and replacing them with words like "plusgood." Language is a necessary requirement for an organized society to rise up, and for factions to rise up beneath the government. Sheep don't rebel against shepards, because they have no way of telling each other "hey, I'm tired of this guy beating us with sticks! Let's kill him!" Reality as we know it would probably not exist, in a sense. We has a definition for the word Reality, and if we didn't have a word for anything, reality would not exist (I feel like a redneck on CNN answering that way, but you get the point.)
ReplyDeleteThat's a good point, Kale. I didn't think of that. I guess adjectives, and, by extension, language are both necessary to develop thought. I do however think that reality would still exist if there were no forms of communication. We may not develop organized societies, we would simply just be.
DeleteI understand your position based on the limited use of adjectives and how that would hinder people from being able to create some type of personality, Kale, but I do not agree with you. Yes, if the language was shortened to a few simple expressive words it would be difficult to distinguish one personality with another. But no two people are alike. Humanity always finds a way to rise up. Like Mr. Lear said below, language is constantly changing. Old words get thrown out as new ones are added in. Reality and perception are created by each individual person, and every person's definition is different.
DeleteGood observation. I also agree that language develops thought. The elimination of language would render adjectives useless, disabling the ability for us to have a personality; that was a great point. I agree that without a language, it would be difficult for a society to even form.
DeleteI agree with Kale and Jesus, a society without language would be very hard and difficult to form. First off how would they even know what to do first? It wouldn't be organized because there honestly wouldn't be anyone there to lead the people, they would just do whatever I guess, but then again we could be wrong considering that we've evolved from cavemen who had no idea, what the hell they were doing
DeleteHere is some food for thought and things to think about:
ReplyDeleteLanguage, and English in particular, has evolved over time. Our language, words, and phrases expands and contracts. At this point in time in our language history our vocabulary and expression is being shortened, in part due to texting and social media. This is not the first time this has happened and probably will not be the last. The English language as time progressed and the language gets to the point of it being to simplistic we begin to elaborate and expand again.
Newspeak and the party is trying to eliminate the expansion of language all over again. Why and how are they doing this?
Some where I read that there is or was a culture whose language had no past tense. So, it is to think that they rarely took into account the past. This one of the influences of language I believe. As newspeak gets better and better and eliminates the expansion of language, it will force people to think in that specific way. If you think in English, you are boxed by the parameters of your vocabulary in the English language. If you think in a language that doesn’t contain anything about the past, then you probably won’t think of the past. If you think in Newspeaks, then doubleplusungood.
DeleteLanguage definitely shapes both our thoughts. When one thinks to themselves or is lost in thought, it is usually in the form of some sort of language. Without language, our thoughts would be complete gibberish, and even one's self would not be able to understand it. But, just like animals, there is no need for communication when it comes to actions, because some actions are natural tendencies, thus the need for language is not necessary. Without language, reality exists, but in solitude. Without language, there is no form of communicating with others whatsoever. Without a form of communicating, the only reality that is possible is with one's self, not with anyone else because we can not bring them into our reality. Language is a vital part of society; without it, we basically have no reality.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. Without language we would not be able to communicate with anyone at all. We would probably just look at each other in a confused face not knowing what to think since we will not be able to without language. How would we even think? Or even be living though? Our brain tells us we are hungry, yes our stomachs growl, but how do we know what is going on? Most likely, we would just start panicking and screaming our heads off while others crowd around all confused.
DeleteCommunicating with others is essential to living, your right. We cannot bring others into our reality without first communicating with them. I understand that without language, our thought would be nothing, and we would not be able to understand ourselves and our surroundings.
DeleteLanguage is capable to change, shape, or create a thought as well as action. Perhaps language isn’t necessary for these two to occur, but it sure does make simple. See, language is a tool that can be used in either a good or bad way. Words hurt. Words can manipulate. Words can create arguments. If all the previous is obviously true, then language is capable to control you. People can be manipulated. People can be fooled. In 1984, the government controls the media allowing them to control what the people hear, think, and know. The media is language. Language is communication. And it’s power and control all the way down.
ReplyDeleteHowever, reality exists even without language. Language, however, cannot exist without reality. Perception exists as well. Reality and perception all act upon a single person. My reality is different than yours and so on. You have your reality from seeing, experiencing, and so on. You didn’t necessarily need language to know anything is anything. Language just helped.
I agree with you. Language is able to mold both our thoughts and actions. Words are a very powerful tool, whether you know how to use them or not. Language is more of a universal thing, while perception and reality are more of a personal universe. Language is just an expression of our own reality and perception.
DeleteI completely agree with you. Words do control our life and what we say and do. Language and how we use it, whether to prosper or hurt someone, can start or even finish an argument or a simple conversation. Our language is a very dangerous thing and we must watch how we use it.
DeleteAlthough while reading this I felt tripped out, I completely agree with you. Our language develops our thoughts and actions and how we describe and feel the world around us. Ultimately, our individual perception of our different realities is based highly upon our dependence on language. We often struggle to make someone understand a situation we've been through, as we cannot describe to them the feelings and emotions we had in that moment, for example.
DeleteIf language were necessary for thought then nobody would be able to think nor give their own points of view on different subjects like we are doing now with this discussion post. Language evolves over time like Mr. Lear has said, especially in our time period our generations including a good amount of adults are way to lazy to spell out complete words and phrases that we just decide to put in made up abbreviations, abbreviations like "LOL". Newspeak is a form of shortened language, yet I don't think that this language shapes thought nor does it shape action, if this were so than there would not even be the possibility of rebellion towards the party. If Newspeak shaped thought than everyone in the book would believe all the lies coming from the party. If action were shaped by Newspeak than Winston would not have bought the diary illegally and written "DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER". Winston would not have written in his diary "They'll shoot me I don't care... I don't care down with big brother". Newspeak does not shape thought, because if it did than there would not be a point to have Thought Police.
ReplyDeleteI don't really agree with you. "Doublethink" wouldn't be a crime if it wasn't created in word form. Therefore language is able to shape our actions and our thoughts. While language has evolved a lot, so have our actions and thoughts. Just because a factor plays a role in shaping, doesn't mean its going to be an exact copy. It just means that it is going to have the same things ingrained in it.
DeleteI believe that language does shape both our thoughts and our actions. If there were no language, then people would not be able to think clearly. No language can also mean no communication. With no language, there would be no point in thinking, because your thoughts would not make sense. As for actions, you will always have natural instincts that tell you what to do, but without thoughts, then there be a limit to what you could do. In order to take action, you must be able to think for yourself, and that means you must be able to understand your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteYou actually made me think about my post. It's true what you say " No language can also mean no communication". If there were no language than there would be no point of clear thought.
DeleteI completely agree with you. Communication is really important for the idea evolution and for all types of innovation.. Basically, it's just ultra important. This kind of reminds me of how people think in their native language and makes me wonder how people would think if there was no language to think in.
DeleteI agree with you here Eric. Communication is very important in our modern society and without language we wouldn't really be able to communicate
DeleteLanguage is an important factor when it comes to shaping both our thoughts and actions. We wouldn't respond the way we do if we didn't have the words that we have. Our thoughts would be virtually impossible if it weren't for the languages that surround us to think them, and further along speak them. "Doublethink" would have never been a problem if first the word hadn't been created to label the crime that was supposedly being committed. The book itself says that when you limit the language being spoken, it'll limit the possibilities of actions. While I don't think that it is as extreme as limiting us in everything, I do think they play a role in how we think and act.
ReplyDeleteI think that language is a just a way of expressing reality and perception. What happens to us and how we see things are always going to be there no matter if we can uses words to inform someone else of them. Your way of communicating your perception and reality would have to shift if language didn't exist, but these two things wouldn't change because of the lack of language.
I agree with you to an extent. I'd really like an elaboration on what ways you think the limiting the language wouldn't affect the human race. Your second paragraph makes a good point too.
DeleteLanguage shapes thought because as an individual's mind is limited by their ability to understand concepts. An individual’s ability to understand concepts is limited by their knowledge of language. Their thoughts and opinions influence their actions (which is reality)... I think it's all pretty connected. "Doublethink" in the novel is just another mechanism used by the Party to control its citizens. I think Orwell would definitely agree that the limiting of language works to limit the thoughts/minds of those speaking it, which explains why he used it in 1984.
ReplyDeleteI do not think that language can shape action or thoughts. Instinct will tell us what to do under certain situations. We know that we need to eat at certain times. Reality also does not change. Reality is a fact. Adding a certain amount to a certain amount will always end up in a certain amount.
DeleteLanguage, on its own, is very unique, therefore we use it in both action and thought. We say things to express how we feel and can also see ones body language to tell their mood. On the contrary, newspeak wants to fully eliminate feeling and mood. With newspeak there will hardly be any words to fully explain how you feel. Words like "plusgood" yes we get that you're good, but that would be the only word to express your true feelings. Language is necessary for thought and action. If we did not have language how would we think to ourselves? Our minds would be completely blank without it. Most people also think before they do; your brain thinks it and then it tell all of your body to do as it is told.
ReplyDeleteWithout language, reality and perception would not exist. There would be no form of communication and there is only so much you can express with body motions. Other then that, we would, literally, sit there and just stare at each other. Our heads would just be a hollow skull because what would be the use of a brain without being able to speak? From my point before on thinking before speaking, how would we even tell our body to make motion if we could not speak to ourselves? It just would not happen. Reality could not exist, or even go on, with us just standing there like a statue.
I think reality exists no matter what. People and animals always know what they need to survive. Animals, who does not speak any language, always try to find ways to survive. I think that thoughts and actions are not shaped by language. A German and Italian will act similarly facing a car crash.
DeleteI completely agree with you. What is reality If we have no definition of it? For all we know, we're just walking on the Earth, believing a twisted reality that has been put before us by ancestors past. However, this has become reality in conjuction with our English language.
DeleteI think language is necessary for thought just because it's actually impossible for anything or anyone to think a thought without a word. Animals do not think thoughts for they do not know words. Animals might have a brain, processing and interpreting phenomenon in the form of nervous responses, but not in the analytical form that we're accustom to. For example, the only reason we don't remember things as a baby is because we had no language yet, we had no idea how to think, but as soon as we learned language we started to develop thoughts and memorizing things in our brains
ReplyDeleteI think you have an important point. we do develop thoughts after we begin to learn language.
DeleteShemar, even babies have thoughts at a certain age. The only thing they lack is morality. I do not agree with you on the whole "...we don't remember things as a baby is because we had no language..." At a certain stage in our development, around 3 or 4, is when we are able to obtain memorization. Language is not essential to perception because even babies under the age of 3 still have thoughts due to curiosity. They have a different view of the world.
DeleteNewspeak was the official language of Oceania and was created by the Party to suppress the free expression of the general public. I, however, do not think that language shape thought or action. We have our own natural thought process and instinct. For example, a person will always try to avoid a car crash no matter what language he or she speaks. Likewise, animals, who does not speak any language, will always try to find ways to survive.
ReplyDeleteReality is reality. It is a fact that is unrelated to language. Two plus two will always result in four, and not five. Adding a certain amount to something to a certain amount will always get a certain amount. For example, on page 206, O' Brien tried to change the way Winston think, but Winston stated that " Four! Four! What else can I say? Four!" Perception and reality are unchangeable because they are backed by facts. For example, a person throw a ball into the air, it will not float, it will fall down. It is a fact.
I agree with how you say about how "reality is reality". It is unrelated to language. Each person has a different reality which from your example causes problems. From what he considers reality is not the reality the party is enforcing which is causing him to be tortured because his reality is what he thinks is his but to the eyes of the party it is wrong and therefore he must be changed.
DeleteLanguage shapes thought diffidently, if I wouldn't know what English was or how to speak it, how would I think to myself? Where would my inner thoughts come from? Sure animals still act as they wish but they do not think as humans do, their actions are based upon their instincts for survival. Language did not exists centuries ago but that did not stop the first human beings from living. With or without language, reality still exists; I was born, I am living, I have thoughts and emotions, therefore I am existing.
ReplyDeleteWithout language there wouldn't be perception, the ability to mentality be aware of something. How would we know what love is if there is no name for it? Would it be known as a feeling rather than having a simple word for it, or then again, if language wouldn't exist then the word feeling would not exist either.
I get what you're saying, but I don't quite agree with you. Perception is based on how you view and react to certain events. Language is not necessary to grasp the concept of love. Animals express the love they have for their children through protective instincts. No words needed.
DeleteI disagree with the statement of love. We may not have a name for it but the feeling of love will always remain in us humans. Our ancestors may of not had a name for love but they still did it even though it had no name for it. Other than that i agree with your comment especially your first paragraph
DeleteJust now getting it to let me post comments. I hate technology lately.
ReplyDeleteWow! I am so impressed with you guys!. You had some great points and ideas. This is key into developing your thoughts and analysis of this novel and other novels and stories. Keep up the good work.
ReplyDeleteLanguage is important because you wouldn't be able to think without having to say a word. It's possible, but what if you wanna talk to someone else about it? then you'd have too. Even though nowadays language is changing and getting shorter, it's still a way to communicate with others. Take learning your first words for an instance. Often many people don't understand, but sometimes it's easy to understand. Whether or not language is important.
ReplyDeleteI believe language has some input in thought and action due to the fact that we need a way to communicate. How to describe what we feel, what we do, why we feel or why we do a certain thing. But language is not necessary. It is useful and easier to communicate and describe our thoughts and actions, but not a necessity for thought and action to take place. Thought and action is derived by instincts and events; for example, a caveman shouts about aggressively (action) if he was hit by a boulder (event) and we can infer that his screaming is his way to express what he is feeling (thought).
ReplyDeleteWithout language reality will continue to exist without language as well as perception. Reality is the world or state of things as they actually exist whereas perception is based on how you see and react to realistic events taken place. Language is not needed for such events to occur; for example, this desk I am currently using is obviously bigger than the laptop. Words aren't needed to know that.
I think language is important not only for thought but also for action. It effects thought because depending what language you know determines in what you think. It effects action because even if we had no language our actions could speak for us. Neither thought nor action is language absolutely needed. People who aren't able to talk obviously think also but use their own different method proving that language isn't needed for thought. For action, language isn't required we just do what is required most times on the spot
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